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(And because the most spectacular flame war to ever hit this blog happened, comments are now turned off, for everyone’s sake.)
I have literally been juggling three different browser windows and on the phone with New Hampshire lawmakers this morning. This has snuck up on us fast, folks and now we’re playing catch up.
In a nutshell, New Hampshire is trying to amend the current homicide statute to include fetal death through a bill called HB217. Here’s the issue: an amendment tacked on to this bill now defines an unborn child as from the moment of conception to 24 weeks. Look familiar? It should. This homicide statue amendment has inadvertently become a personhood measure in the process.
There are some other concerning things about this bill. While there are exemptions for certain medical procedures, such as abortion, provided in the bill’s language, it still doesn’t protect embryologists and fertility clinic staff that perform IVF procedures.
Let me get a little more specific. HB217 says the following (emphasis mine):
“[The bill] shall [not] apply to any act committed by the mother of the unborn child, to any medical procedure, including abortion, performed by a physician or other licensed medical professional at the request of the pregnant woman or her legal guardian, or to the lawful dispensation or administration of lawfully prescribed medication.”
The issue here I’ve bolded is “pregnant women”. When you’re an IVF patient and your embryos are created in a petri dish, you’re not pregnant (yet) as in the context of this law since those “unborn children” are outside of your body. The amendment to HB 217 specifically defines “pregnant” as a “female reproductive condition of having an unborn child in
the woman’s body”.
Here exactly is how IVF is then threatened in the state of New Hampshire. We all know that not every embryo makes it to day 3 for transfer. Those embryos are discarded. If HB217 passes? Well, according to the law, that’s homicide.
See how this is a bit of a slippery slope?
This also means that cryopreservation of embryos would also be outlawed, because you can’t really cryopreserve unborn children.
UPDATED MAY 2, 2012
This bill is up for vote TOMORROW Wednesday, May 9th in the New Hampshire State Senate. It was your calls and emails that made enough of an impact to get the vote pushed back a week. That said, keep those calls and emails comin’, New Hampshire!
What You Need to Do RIGHT NOW
+ Live in NH? Great! Call your State Senator RIGHT NOW and voice your opposition to HB217. Need talking points? Here you go.
+ Know someone who lives/works in NH? Family member, friend or colleague perhaps? Have them do the above ASAP today.
+ Share this post. Or this great overview from RESOLVE New England.
+ Tweet about it with hashtag #NOonHB217.
I seriously cannot put into words just how important it is that New Hampshire rallies to defeat this bill. We’re talking about throwing IVF treatments for every single New Hampshire resident into jeopardy.
Kimberly:
Spell check isn’t my strong point. FYI, embrtos are most definitely childre/babies. Watch “In the Womb” and you can see the development from ‘a ball of cells’ into, well, you or me, Notice, if an embryo is a wanted pregnancy, it is always referred to as a baby. Have you ever heard a pregnant woman refer to her pre-born as an embryo? No, from her first knowledge of pregnancy, she says she has a baby. Even in the case of miscarriage, mothers lose their babies, not their embryos.
As to reading the posts, I have read many of them, and I am sumpathetic towards people with fertility problems. I just don’t think that we should cavalierly discard what, in other circumstances, would be rightfully called babies and would naturally become mature human beings. The very early stage of life called embryo, is just that-a stage through which all humans go. I agree with our Declaration of Independence which cledarly states that all peop[le are endowed by their Creator with the inalienable right to life. We have no authority to dispose of that innocent life.
You say, “For many, any viable excess embryos are either used for future children for the couple and are cryogenically frozen until …” Well, that may be comforting, but the fact is there are tens of thousands of these babies whose future is bleak. Some will become ‘snowflakes’, but an enormous number will not.
Again, you say, “…but if its something they created with the help of medicine, its up to them”, once more relegating these babies to the level of a commodity, or, perhaps more accurately, slaves. After all, it is only slaves whose future is at the discretion of other people.
The ‘small numbers’ idea is moot. Is it Ok to kill that small number so the larger number can live? By that logic, it would be Ok to terminate anyone over, say 90, so more younger people could live. I don’t expect you agree with that asertion, but the principle is no different.
I iterate: HB 217 is about justice for families of wanted children and we’re working with legislators to specifically exlude IVF, which we don’t think is covered anyway, from the bill. Remember, it is we who, the pro-lifers, who defend all babies.
Kurt, While I thank you for your civil response I disagree with you greatly. I didn’t ask if you skimmed the comments, I asked if you read ALL of the comment. I also asked if you fully educated yourself on the actual process of IVF and ART. Why don’t you take some time and actually educate yourself on the process of IVF, infertility and its impact on couples. Then cross reference it with that bill you love so much and see if it we have any reason to be upset. You even said “…which we DON’T THINK IS COVERED”. Maybe you should be sure about that before you and your friends start attacking infertility patients about their feelings on the bill.
And for the record, I refer to IVF as IVF. The first part of it is an egg retrieval, the second part, collection of sperm and the combination of both to create blastocysts which then turn into embryos, incomplete embryos are not embryos and as I stated in previous comments, an incomplete embryo if grown in a natural way through natural conception would eventually pass in a woman like a normal period. This part is not discarding an unwanted child. At no point is this unwanted. We want them to take. An embryo does not grow or continue to grow past its embryo stage til it attaches itself to the lining of a womans uterus. In a normal woman if this happened without her knowing or seeing each stage of her cycle like we do, it would pass like a normal period. An unsuccessful cycle if you will. But the last stage of this is the embryo transfer. And please note the name of that. Embryo, NOT BABY. NOT CHILD. EMBRYO. Once that embryo has attached itself to the lining of the uterus and starts to grow, then you would finally get a positive pregnancy test and I would go so far as to consider it a growing child but would not announce it til 12 weeks because of the high chance of miscarriage in the first trimester. (by the way, just so you know, the chances of miscarriage is 1 in 3 in the first trimester)
And if someone needs a voice, who is to say you are the person who deserves the right to do it. When people have children, your offices do nothing to promote the well being of kids in the foster system, I don’t see you fighting for more rights or more monetary support for extended family that are left to raise the kids of some drugged out whore on the street who is too busy looking for her next fix instead of taking care of her kids. Your agenda is simple, attack those who want to be parents but need assistance. Thats why you are on this site and thats why “Mike” came onto an infertility site to tell us IVF is a scam and we should all just quit. No one judges a parents decision for their child once they are born, so why attack the judgement of wanna be parents? cause we carry an easy target on our forehead? Why don’t you start fighting for the lowering of costs to adopt and a less time consuming process? Maybe then, most of us people killing our “so called unborn children” in your eyes can also adopt children while we are at it? Clearly, parents are given the right to make decisions for their children on a daily basis be that nutrition, schooling or medical decisions, we should also be able to make decisions for our unborn children (those that have moved passed the embryo stage) and we should also be able to decide what happens to our embryos, especially when they have not moved past the blastocyst phase to the embryo phase. You can name us owners or guardians but at the end of the day, like children, we have a say what will happen to them. Are infant children slaves because parents make decisions on their behalf? You don’t and you shouldn’t. I don’t come into your home and tell you how to raise your kids or how to plan your family. So why should that right be moved onto others for us. We are doing nothing different than what our bodies do when we go through this naturally, its just that the governments and groups like yours feel they have a say when the steps are done with the help of science and trained professionals. Also, I’d like to make note that you skipped over the part where embryos are commonly adopted out to other couples who have had no luck after a couple has finished creating their family and myself and my husband have every intention to adopt our any remaining embryos to couples who have not had success with embryo transfers in the past. We wish to give to another couple so they can have a chance at a family as well. So its not always a use em, freeze em, or destroy em options.
So your argument is that you should have a say over all of this even though its my eggs and my husbands sperm? How is that right. Why should government officials or right wing activists have a say over what my body does or what I do to my body to be able to be pregnant? Why don’t I go into your home and dictate how you use your penis? Or your wife’s vagina. Or decide how many children you should or shouldn’t have and when you have them? There might be a future unprotected life that needs protecting! You may not outright fight for this bill to go against IVF but the cruel hard truth is that until that bill specifically says in bold print THIS BILL WILL NOT AFFECT IVF OR ANY IVF PRACTICES, THE DOCTORS OR PATIENTS ATTACHED TO ARTIFICIAL REPRODUCTIVE THERAPY, then IVF, the doctors and the patients using the service are screwed by your public agenda. Maybe if there was a decently worded bill that broke the the extensive circumstances that you wish to protect, this bill would not be fought against on such a high level. But until that happens, know perfectly well that people like Keiko will fight to stop it.
And small numbers. Ok lets talk small numbers. Say that there is an experimental treatment to potentially cure AIDS or Cancer, but the risk to entering into this may mean the loss of some lives, either from the AIDS and Cancer or the medication made it worse, but this work will cure it eventually. Would it be better in the long run to test and possibly lose a few people along the way but save millions in the long run? Sure it sucks, but these people or their guardians weighed the risk and said it was worth it to save more people in the long run, would you deny that? Some people do this. Hospitals and scientists do this all the time in hopes of finding new medicines to extend the life of patients and eventually work towards a cure. Since a young child, embryo, “pre-born child” as you call them cannot speak for itself or make decisions for itself, it is the job of the guardian (owner, the person to make all legal decisions, next of kin, whatever you wanna call it) to make those decisions. Not you, not your activists and not any government officials. Its called informed consent.
And no HB 217 is not about justice for families of unwanted children, its a way for you to stop abortion because your religion tells you not to and you are trying to force that opinion on others. Don’t beat around the bush. This whole argument is about abortion and its just screwing with infertility while its at it. All I have to say is, I’m glad I’m not an American. I don’t have to fight for my right to do what I please with my lady parts. My government doesn’t care about my uterus or any of my lady parts. I just fear for the future of my wonderful American friends whose right to choose is being fought by religious right wingers. So while I’m quite glad it doesn’t affect my Canadian lady bits, I’ll happily stand next to my American friends and fight for a no on all personhood bills.
Have a wonderful day, Kurt.
Woah! Go Kimberly! Way to kick some ass with words!!!
Mike,
Sorry I missed out on most of the discussion today, and most importantly to your shout out on my behalf, but I fear I may have given you the wrong impression. So allow me to be clear. I am 100% subscribing to IVF, and any ART that will give me the opportunity to TRY to become a mommy. I have faith in my God, and my Fertility Specialist, that I will reach that goal one day. I COMPLETELY agree with Keiko, and all she has said. Not only because she is a close, personal friend from my childhood, but because she is right. Every statement she has made has been backed up with statistics and medical documentation. Your argument simply falls back to IVF is a scam. But you haven’t proven why. Let me give you a clue. If IVF came with a 10% success rate, or a 1% success rate, I would still happily buy into it, because I want to, and deserve to build my family my way. If I choose adoption, then thats the road I will take. But not because some right wing ass (that would be you) says that I need to. And we must not have the same god. My God is an all knowing, all loving, all forgiving God. He would never allow women who are addicted to drugs, and drinking, and who abuse their children, to become a parent while denying me my right. My God loves me so much, he would never tell me no it wont happen, he simply is telling me its not the right time yet. I understand, and can sympathize with the situation your sister in law is in, because I, and so many others, are in basically the same one. I know the devistation of living with failed cycles. But you can’t blame medicine for that. If you are going to blame anyone, blame God. The technology of IVF is only to get you pregnant. Once you see two lines on a pee stick, you are on your own.
So just to clarify, Im not some lame prisoner of IVF, one of the sheeple who is being blindly lead into medical procedures that won’t work. I am walking in, proudly, with both eyes wide open. And I will continue to subject myself to the nightmare until I decide I’m done. And you will be really proud to know, not only am I trying to create a child with medical science, but I’m trying to do it as a single parent. I’m going to buy some “male contribution” and create a miracle all on my own.
And I am so damn proud of myself for it
Jamie
I’m very sorry this turned into the acrimonious discussion of IVF. HB 217 aimns to give justice to those families who loise a wanted baby to a criminal act. It was never intended to preclude IVF, As President of New Hampshire Right to Life, I haves poken with my senator and offered to inlcude IVF in the portion of the bill that already excludes abortion. In this way, people can be free to pursue IVF and the families of wanted children can get the justice they deserve. For the record, I alos oppose IVF becuase, to my understanding, IVF deliberatley creates many cjhildren [embryos] with the hope of producing one or more that fully develop. We don’t know how many might develop, but we do know that many, likely most, of those children [embryos] will never see a womb, and, consequently, are doomed from before they are made. This in no way mitigates ofr vitiates the grief of infertility. It is my belief that those children [embryos] created by IVF should all be given the chance to live. Otherwise, these babies [embryos] are nothing more than a commodity and human life should never be a commodity.
Kurt, my question is, 1. do you spell check anything before you make it public and 2. do you actually have any real knowledge of IVF or any ART (artificial reproductive therapy)? Read the comments of this post. ALL of the comments. For many, any viable excess embryos are either used for future children for the couple and are cryogenically frozen until they can be used in hopes of future children and if the couple does not use them and are clearly finished with their family making process, many then put their embryos up for adoption so that other couples can use them in hopes of creating their own families. Sure, some decide to give their embryos to science, but if its something they created with the help of medicine, its up to them, not your activists to determine what will help. Plus those numbers are small in comparison to what embryos are actually being used for transfers.
If these bills are not created to attack IVF maybe the people pushing these bills should educate themselves properly on IVF and ART and not attack those that feel they are going to be affected by these potential bills because of shoddy wording. Also, FYI embryos are not children. It is only after the embryo is placed in the uterus and it attaches itself to the lining of the walls and grows from there that the embryo grows and starts growing into a fetus. Before that, its simply a ball of cells.
Hi, I have to chime in here 1 more time. Like I said earlier, Ive had 6 m/c since July-2010 and I know or I feel that its a chromosone issue. Each time I test positive I beg God to let me keep it. I will never stop trying, whether it be naturally or ivf. There is no way I can. I look at my husband every day and see a child from him! I see that he is deserving of being a father. And I can see the love that he has to offer!
Mike, Im not going to bag on you, but if you were childless, would you not do anything in your power to father a child, to give your your wife a child? Imagine your life without your daughter. Really think about it. And then think about what science and technology has done for so many struggeling couples. Im sorry for your sister in law. But IVF is and has helped so many people.
That was supposed to be in response to Mike aditting he’s never spoken to anyone who’s been through IVF, as suggested by Lauran. FAIL on my part.
Actually, it’s probably more like they’re not going to speak up because you walk around spewing hate and a self-righteous attitude. Not to mention, infertility is still considered a shameful thing in our society, and even families who’ve been successful are unfortunately silent due to the arrogant attitudes and “suggestions” of people like you. I probably wouldn’t bother trying to talk to a close-minded ignoramus like you, either.
One wonders if Mike has ever met anyone who, after having a baby (or more) through IVF, has gotten pregnant afterwards without needing any fertility treatments at all. I know several. Hmm, wonder how such a judgmental and anti-IVF G-d could’ve rigged that one up.
I have been trying to strip the profanity-filled phrases in response to the Mike dude…. But am failing. So, I will just applaud the pervious responses that are so much classier than what I was managing to type. I have watched a close friend go through the utter disaster that the adoption process can be. “Just adopt” does nothing but make me want to punch people in the face, because they clearly have no flipping clue what that entails. Just recently re-connected with another friend who also struggled with making her family a reality. Mad props to all you awesome ladies and the fantastic men who support you through this. Thanks for being awesome enough to right for your children even before you know if you will be able to keep, have or hold them.
I’m curious if Mike was spouting off this bullshit to his sister in law, as she was cycling? They must have an awesome relationship.
This. Times a million.
Why yes, We did discuss it at length. She knew full well and went through implantation with every live embryo. None were left frozen for medical research. It was much more than $15,000. There were many failures. She was heartbroken about it but at least her conscience is clear that she did not donate her babies for lipstick testing.
So you can hate me if that makes you feel better. I understand. Unborn babies are people too. I will stand up for them. Unborn babies are not property to be disposed of. HB217 is about protecting those “wanted babies”. Any protection is better than the none we have now. What about the unwanted babies? What makes them less than human? Trying to defeat the bill shows your true intent.
This is where you don’t know your facts, Mike. An embryo is not implanted. It is transferred. It does not have a beating heart or brain function until it implants (on it’s own…hey! It’s a miracle!) and then the blood flow begins.
You also assume that every “left over” embryo is discarded. #1) Couples can actually donate their embryos to other couples wishing to adopt…there, adoption and being pregnant without loss of life, woot! #2) Do not assume you know what is done with every embryo…do not assume they are being sent off for lipstick testing.
Seriously, just stop.
Mike, what makes you think that an infertile doesn’t want babies? Am I just burning money in my fireplace because I don’t want a baby? A baby is ALL I want. All I’ve EVER wanted. When the cells do not develop fully, it is not a viable embryo, it would never survive even if it had formed in the woman instead of outside the woman. If those same undeveloped cells grew this way naturally in our body, our body would reject it and it would pass like a normal period. This is no different in process. Did you know that viable embryos can be frozen for later children or given to other couples who could not conceive with their own eggs and sperm? Sure some are given to science for such things as stem cell research (not to try out new lipsticks, like you joke about or may actually believe, that remains to be seen).
And like many of my comments that you have yet to respond to and all the questions asking for scientific data to support your words, you have no evidence to support your ramblings and judgement. You put a high value on human life at the moment of creation, during the act of sex. If this is so important to you, I have to ask, do you have sex for fun with your spouse? Do you still have sex with your wife even after you have finished having children? If sex is primarily for procreating, wouldn’t any other sex act, or not having sex at her optimal time and she has her period be murder? Or at least reckless abandonment? What about masturbation? Do you masturbate? If so that should be deemed at reckless abandonment. Your sperm is used to create life with your wife, so if you (or anyone) has sex outside of ovulation period or masturbation, Is a woman murdering an unborn child (or potential child) because she had her period? If so, then you are preventing the creation of life!
Maybe this is far fetched, but the point at the end of the day is, the idea of creating law to determine the beginning of life is a slippery slope. The laws were created to show that a viable life of a fetus surviving is when they can be sustained outside of the womb. The earliest that this can happen (with the help of amazing doctors and excellent care) is 24 weeks and that is still a hit or miss. Maybe you are against abortion laws, but that’s why they created the laws the way that they did. They looked at the success rate of a fetus surviving outside of the womb. The laws in your country and in my own country used medicine and science to come to this decision. It doesn’t matter if you are pro-life or pro-choice. The science and data do not back up your claims. No matter what you believe in, you have no right to try to take that away from anyone else. Or to use your religion to change the laws to suit your own beliefs. If you have beliefs, then live your life they way that you believe it should be lived, but don’t force your thoughts, beliefs and judgements on others.
And For the record, we don’t hate you, we pity you.
WTF are you talking about with lipstick testing? Are you insane or just really stupid? You have to be one or the other to come up with something like that that’s so completely off-base. Yeah, lipstick testing on a blastocyst. Idiot.
Here is another IVF success story….. I am the proud mother of a 2 year old little boy who was conceived through IVF. He is my miracle baby. After many years of suffering from infertility the Lord blessed me with my miracle. God gave man the ability and knowledge to help others who are in need. My little man is well worth the thousands we spent on IVF and in no way is it a scam. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if I had an opinion like that of MIKE I would keep it to myself. Thank you Keiko and all the others for setting him straight and hopefully the next time he feels the need to bash someone about something so personal as infertility then he will think twice. It is such a shame that so many people are so close minded and truly don’t understand what fertility is and does to a person.
One of Mike’s arguments that really doesn’t make sense is: cells failing to develop = baby killing. Cells fail to develop all the time among people trying to conceive naturally. Sperm meets egg, it doesn’t implant. Sperm meets egg, it implants improperly. Sperm meets egg, it implants properly but stops growing due to genetic abnormalities. Sperm meets eggs, it implants properly but stops growing due to some problem in the uterine environment. The miscarriage statistics are always accompanied by an asterisk that says: the number could be much higher as most people begin to menstruate before they realized they’d conceived. It takes the average fertile couple 7 months to conceive and at least 1 in 4 women have a miscarriage. If cells failing to develop during the IVF process = dead babies, then these natural failures = dead babies too. Ahhhhh! Everyone is killing babies!
PS Keiko, I’m going to start sending you wigs, because you have to be ripping your hair out responding to this stuff every day 🙂
I’m just going to chime in here because I don’t see any posts from IVF survivors. So here goes. I have 2 beautiful children from IVF, and as a pretty religious person, I believe they are miracles. I believe IVF is a miracle of modern science and GOD. My husband and I struggled with infertility for 2 years before I got pregnant through IVF (on our third attempt.) The first transfer resulted in a chemical pregnancy–we were devastated. The second transfer failed–we were devastated. The third WORKED, and resulted in my twin girls. I only decided to post because couples with IF often hear negatives after negative. People in our lives are quick to tell us to “just adopt” or to give up. Someone here needs to say it might work.
I’ve had to explain our decision to pursue IVF more than I should have. Too many people do not realize the heart-wrenching decisions infertile couples have to make. I don’t know anyone who goes into IVF or any version of ART lightly. If anyone thinks for one second that my husband and I just discarded those other 4 embryos–they are wrong. No one wanted those embryos to be babies more than us. In the IF community that’s what we want–babies. I think we’d all love it if indeed IVF did create little babies for us to take home in 3-5 days, but it doesn’t. It creates 8-celled organisms that we HOPE and PRAY make it to be our babies.
Keep up the awesome work Keiko. You bring a strong voice to a community of people who sometimes struggle to speak up. You’re awesome. I’ve got my fingers crossed for you. (Oh and I love the blog.)
P.S. Didn’t realize you had e-books. I’ll be search for those—now.
Melody, thank you so much for sharing your story of resolution. Infertility is a cruel mistress- sometimes treatment works for ppl, sometimes it doesn’t. I know some folks have a hard time hearing success stories. I say bring them on and keep them coming – it’s stories like yours that give me hope.
I realize I sound a bit detached from discarded embryos like it ain’t no thing- part of it is probably because I have yet to undergo IVF. I might feel differently come late August/early September. And I know that those balls of cells still mean SO much to people – I know it’s no easy decision to know that you might have 5 grade A embryos but safely, you should only put back two or one. There’s a beautiful piece at RESOLVE NEw England’s blog about a couple’s decision about what to do with their excess embryos here: http://www.resolvenewengland.org/2012/02/what-should-we-do-with-our-embryos/ I share this link b/c it really puts into perspective how you feel about embryos once you have your own to work with.
And as for eBooks, check ’em out! You can find everything under here: http://theinfertilityvoice.com/shop.
I always say ignorance is free. And knowledge is power. I say a prayer all the time for us suffering with infertility! Amen to all of us women that are willing to speak out about this! And I praise the men that are not afraid to stand up to those that have no clue what we go through month after month of trying to have a child!!!
Y’all, I am amazed. Your comments all have me smiling and laughing and cheering (on the inside, because I’m in a library on campus and they’d probably toss me out). You caused me to comment for the first time on Keiko’s blog! Thank you for all the support you are giving Keiko and each other as you all trudge through this long, painful journey.
Mike, if you’re going to make claims, you have to show grounds and warrants with sufficient, reliable backing in order to be taken seriously. Tossing around phrases and engaging in verbal aggression will get you nowhere, whereas calm and rational discussion (complete with facts and reliable sources!) will actually help your case. If you need a refresher on how to hold such a conversation, look up the words “Toulmin Model” to see how this can be accomplished.
BOOM. Mike got served.
And yet he still feels the need to come in here and shit all over my place. How rude.
It would appear Mike realized he walked into the lions den and disappeared. Too bad, I’d like to see him address everyone.
Indeed. Internet tough guy is tough.
Mike,
I think you’ve provoked me to write my first comment. It amazes me how closed minded and cruel people can be. I for one hope your daughter came through traditional means, but the fact that you are so quick to judge those who selflessly spend what is often their life savings only trying to achieve what came so naturally to you and your wife is sickening. People visit this blog because they are looking for hope. They are looking for help and support in their journey through a disease that crushes the emotions of many people. Keiko isn’t making money trying to push IVF, Keiko didn’t start this blog and become involved with this community because she’s trying to make a buck. Keiko is here, because like many of the people here the good outlets for people suffering through infertility are few and far between.
And Mike, as long as people like you continue to belittle those who struggle through their lack of understanding and compassion good outlets like this one will continue to be hard to come by because Keiko is one of the strongest, bravest voices on the web and your small mind will never change that.
Damn, this must have pissed you off because you NEVER comment here.
I have the best husband ever, folks. Let the record show: my husband is friggin’ amazing.
Dear Larry, I understand people are coming here looking for hope. But IVF is not the place you will find it, at least 60% of those who try do not. Keiko is getting paid. I do not get paid for any of my involvement. I do care. Keiko and many of her applauders hail from the far-left wing of the Democratic Party. This is political for them. It is about making unborn babies their property. As I explained earlier, I was not granted the opportunity to have as many children as I wanted. Medical complications arose. I take it that God had other plans. He knows better than I. It is a short life. I would prefer to keep my conscience clear and not keep my mouth shut when I can offer someone real concern, not platitudes. All I can say to those who want more children is keep looking, but I strongly reccomend you do not look to IVF. It is not a miracle. The odds on favorite is heartbreak.
For those who may have conceived (if any) via IVF, I understand your desire and I hope you fare well in your life and that you impart on your child the priceless value of all human life.
Mike,
You continue to embarrass yourself. I don’t know who you think Keiko is, but she doesn’t get paid to talk about IVF. I think I’d know we share bank accounts. That’s one of those things you do when you’re married. Keiko does not get paid by the council on IVF or anything like it because, just in case you were wondering, THERE IS NO COUNCIL ON IVF, especially one that clandestinely pays bloggers to spew their rhetoric all over the internet with the specific intent of insulting Jesus.
Is IVF imperfect? Absolutely. But you know what? For a lot of us – it’s the best chance we’ve got. You’ve yet to address any one of the intelligently written comments by Keiko or any of the other commenters that talk about the blastocysts that “get disposed of” because they stop developing after they’ve reached a limited number of cells (and by the way I’d really like to see you test makeup on 8 cells). You are spouting the same hateful speech over and over without once backing up anything you have to say with anything concrete. How about a fact every once and a while?
Hi Mike,
It is clear that you and your sister-in-law have greatly suffered. You are not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of women and men, as well as those who love them, who suffer daily. Sometimes our suffering brings us to a better place, and other times unfortunately it does not. I’m sorry that your suffering brought you to a dark and ugly place filled with anger and bitterness. I hope you find peace, but as you can tell you can not bully any of us into believing IVF is a scam. I know several beautiful babies and children that are the result of their parents sacrificing vacations, dinners out and more so that they could afford IVF. IVF is a proven scientific technology with great benefits.
The purpose of HB 217-FN was to criminalize the intentional harm to a pregnant woman’s fetus that resulted in death of the fetus. So, yes we will fight to keep it from criminalizing medical technology. By the way, even the NH Domestic Violence Commission believes HB 217-FN should not pass because it would be harmful to women.
Anway, may you find peace.
“even the NH Domestic Violence Commission believes HB 217-FN should not pass because it would be harmful to women.”
Today I learned. Good to know – thanks Chrissy!
Yes Keiko isn’t that great? And sorry for the double post. My first didn’t show up right away and then I realized I had more to say anyway (typical).
Organizations speaking out against HB 217 include, ACLU, NH Assoc. of Criminal Defense Attorneys, Resolve/Resolve of New England, and NH Domestic Violence Coalition. As a member of 4 of those organizations I’m very proud this week!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, Mike, whoa. Slow your roll here a minute.
Where is this whole “IVF is a baby killing money making scam” business coming from? Where is the data to back up YOUR claims? You are so interested in spreading your hatred of a medical procedure and dismissing other peoples opinions and facts, yet you have no citations to back up your own claims.
What exactly do you think Keiko and any of us are doing on here? We’re not getting kick backs from reproductive endocrinologists. We’re not in the pocket of drug companies. We are just people- trying to build our families.
Where in the world do you think that “little babies” as you call them and embryo’s come from? They come from US. We are the ones paying thousands of dollars because of people like you dismissing infertility as elective, not a disease. We;re the ones FIGHTING each and every moment of our lives to have that family…why in your tiny little brain would you think we’d just throw that away? Why would we fight bills such as these just for the opportunity at parenthood to throw our “little babies” away? Your argument is completely lacking in sense…so I guess it’s fitting for you.
And as someone in the midst of the adoption process, your comments on adoption are APALLING. How many adopted kids do you have Mike? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? WHY NOT?! Why haven’t you adopted?
Pot, meet kettle.
Adopton is a long hard road, and it’s definitely not for everyone. Did you have to get a physical to buy a house? Did you have a member of your state government look in your underwear drawer before you got in your car in the morning? I doubt it. Don’t minimalize adoption like it’s so easy and anyone can do it. It’s a lot of money, pain and hard work, and it also doesn’t always work out. Does that make ita scam too?
How about taking your car to the mechanic when the check engine light is on? If it’s something they can’t fix, is that a scam? Is it something they try to fix and it ends up breaking again, is that a scam? I think you need to look up the definition of scam.
We all build our families how we see fit, and it’s not the laws purpose nor need to impact that. PLEASE educate yourself, because you’re making my head hurt.
Rebecca, I will be organizing nothing short of a parade when you finalize your adoption. This comment is amazeballs. Nicely done.
*slow clap, stands, standing ovation*
Dear Rebecca, Please look at the medical science. It is a fact, these embryos are brought into existence and the majority of them are “disposed of”. Most likely, if you signed the clause letting them be used for medical science as guinea pigs for medical, food, or makeup testing. Everyone has opinions. Keiko is making her living at keeping you conned. IVF is not a good approach towards creating a family.
Mike, you are an ignorant moron. I know A LOT of infertile couples who have done IVF. I don’t know a single one who destroyed a viable embryo. Infertile people don’t just go around destroying embryos for kicks. Embryos that are disposed of are the ones than don’t mature and couldn’t possibly make a viable pregnancy. By your logic, women who have early miscarriages are just horrible murderers because their bodies rejected an embryo.
If anything, we value life MORE because of how hard we have to work to have children. I am pro-life, and that means that I value ALL life. I think that it is wonderful that God can guide the hands of doctors to help couples create a family. It is amazing. It is everything that being pro-life stands for.
I’m guessing that you haven’t had any problems with reproduction. Maybe YOU should adopt. Why should adoption be something that is only the responsibility of infertile couples? Do you know how expensive adoption is? Do you know how long it takes? Do you know that not everyone is approved due to the crazy financial standards you have to meet to qualify with most agencies? Did you know that many countries won’t allow couples to adopt if one partner has an illness? I wouldn’t be approved by many countries because I have Crohn’s disease.
IVF absolutely does work. I’ve seen the results. I’ve seen beautiful children who WOULDN’T EXIST if it wasn’t for IVF. So Mike, do the world a favor and stop trying to sound educated about topics that you clearly know nothing about.
Mike,
I believe Keiko has referrenced many times throughout this discussion that if you read this site/blog on a regular basis, you would find that she is not highly compensated for her views. She has been doing this for long enough that her voice has been heard for a few years now….many of us have. Even though she sells things (ebooks, etc.), if you took the time to do your research, you would see the type of person she is. While I am 100% sure she can defend herself, I would hate for you to look more ignorant than you already do. She is here to give a voice (ahem, check the title of the site/blog), help with awareness and support those experiencing a life-altering disease.
Have some compassion and understand that those decisions being made about embryos/IVF/treatment are not made lightly. They do not come without tears, doubts, fear, resentment, and every other emotion/feeling under the moon. Those who struggle with infertility are not just out to make babies…they only want to have a family. Do you honestly think that by posting here you will change someone’s mind? Do you think Keiko is the only one out there sharing these thoughts/views/support? Do you know that there are 7.3 MILLION people in the U.S. alone who are infertile? Do you have more than 8 friends? One of them is infertile. 1 in 8 (and some studies show as many as 1 in 6). Did you know that last week was National Infertility Awareness Week? Did you know that for every person in this country that keeps their mouth shut out of embarrassment of being infertile, there are 5 (at least) of us willing to be their voice? Show them support? Educate the masses?
Before you judge someone…realize that what you said is true. You have no right to judge anyone. You refer to God being God, not us. So, instead of assuming you know God’s every thought and feeling…remember we are ALL his children. He loves us. He accepts us. He blesses us in ways we might not understand or realize until down the road. You have no right to cast a stone. Your job, as a “Christian,” is to be Christ-like and love those who are in need. Love the down-trodden. Love those in despair.
Love, Mike. Your job is to love.
I highly doubt if you spoke with anyone who went through IVF and had a succesful pregnancy, that you would get them to agree with your argument of “its a scam”. So many people out there suffer from infertility and for alot of them, IVF works. It doesn’t matter if it has a 40 percent success rate and a 60 percent fail rate,Its better odds than most infertiles that are facing IVF have. With doctors telling them they have a 1% chance of conceiving naturaly. If faced with a 1 percent odd or a 40 percent odd, I’d take the 40 percent chance. Some people want to try EVERYTHING medically possible to have that child of their own, to pass on their genetic legacy, to make something that is combination of both parents, crafted by God in the womb, before they move on to adoption, which is outrageously expensive and you have to have every aspect of your life scrutenized and IF you get approved, the biological mom can still change her mind at the last minute. Who are you to say its a scam. You have a child. You have not been faced with the decisions people with infertility have to make. Your sister did, yes, and I am very sorry IVF didn’t work for her and she suffered so many losses. IVF gives people a fighting chance and most of all, HOPE. The hope of finally being able to hold a little one of their own making in their arms. It sickens me that you agree that it is okay to take this away from people. Life if full of ups and downs. You won’t always succeed in EVERYTHING in life, but I would rather fail knowing I’ve done everything I could , then not doing all I could. You will always cry out “scam” when hearing of IVF but for those who face it its hope and for those who have succeeded using it, its sooo much more than that.
Lauran – “You won’t always succeed in EVERYTHING in life, but I would rather fail knowing I’ve done everything I could , then not doing all I could. ”
Yes. Yes yes yes. That’s why we’re pursuing treatment. To know that we tried. And if it doesn’t work, c’est la vie – we move on. But damnit – we tried. Thanks for your wonderful comment.
Thank you, Correct I have not spoken with anyone who was successful at IVF.
Mike,
Honestly you’re just outclassed and un-informed. I appreciate (though doubt) that you have never spoken to anyone who has been successful at IVF. I have..3 of them. All of which are deserving, loving parents and women. I will absolutely grant that it is difficult and tragic odds of success.But I’ll end here with a story. There was a man and a woman walking on a beach. It was a gorgeous day after a storm. As they were walking along the beach they came across a seemingly endless field of dying starfish. They had only moments left to be rescued. The woman began frantically gathered as many as she could to save them. In reality she returned just 4 starfish back to the water, and they survived. The man, incedulous, said, what do you think you’re doing, there are too many, you can’t possibly make a difference. The woman said, tell that to those four.
I honestly don’t know that someone like you can see the relevance and parallel. But talk to a 5th grader, they’ll explain it to you.
Mike, hi. I have 2 children from a previous marriage. I had a tubal reversal to give my new husband a child of his own. I know I have 2 children already, but I suffer now with infertility. I personally know couples that have ivf babies. And I know that those men and women would not have those babies without the proper treatment that they had. As sad as it sounds, not everyone can carry a pregnancy to term. And I pray for those that cant. But not all centers are built equally. I truly believe that there are blessings that can only happen through ivf. My girlfriend had no luck th very same day as my surgery to have her tubes repaired. Right now, she is 30 weeks pregnant and yes, it was I’ve that blessed her and her husband. So I say, thank god for the center that blessed her and her family!! By the way, its a little girl:-)
What a beautiful story about your friend. I hope it inspires you with hope on your journey! And know I’m rootin’ for you too 🙂
As a man I really am just open jawed at the degree of judgement that is apparent in Mikes posting. Imagine if Steve Jobs or Bill Gates were told that their chances of success at developing a viable software company were less than 35%. And that spending money in your efforts to develp a successful business was doing nothing but feeding some nebulous cash cow. Now imagine the sacrifice of the 65% of those business that didn’t make, but, as things often go in science, the un-intended outcome leds to progress or future discovery.
That defeatest attitude of saying “you should just quit”, and judging women as they go through a very difficult time as to blindly contributing to a cash cow just makes me shake my head. I simply can’t imagine the oppresive culture in your company. And BTW, I’m an organizational psychologist. So I do know what I’m talking about.
Also I don’t think the word “Fact” means what you think it means “Need not” and “should be” are by definition an opinion, not a fact….sigh.
Thanks George for representing the men today! You hit the nail on the head re: “You should just quit.” In fact, I would say the same to Mike. With an attitude like his, he should “just quit.”
Kudos. Well put.
Again, this is not about Software or any other business. It is about the practice of InVitro Fertilization and the lives it sacrifices. As a “psychologist” you may rationalize it any way you see fit. It does not change the facts. At least 60% of the embryos/unborn babies/fetuses/unborn children are “disposed of” when it fails 60% of the time, never mind what happens to the leftover children if it succeeds. If Keiko wants to elaborate on the truth you will find the failure rate much higher. It is a bad practice. IVF is a SCAM. I don’t lie to my clients to get their business, nor would I use foul language to make my point. I do not promote a 60% failure rate as a success. If I did, I would be out of work. IVF is a SCAM.
“At least 60% of the embryos/unborn babies/fetuses/unborn children are “disposed of” when it fails 60% of the time,”
Whoa whoa whoa, Mr. Vocabulary, here we go confusing words again. That 60% comes from IVF cycles from women under 35 that do not result in live births (also, that data is from 2009 I believe; not sure if more current out there, didn’t have time to check).
Are the words miscarriage and disposal synonymous with you? Because that’s just wrong – factually, categorically wrong. Because that’s what that figure implies – that the embryo(s) could have implanted but did not make it to a live birth, thus: miscarriage. These aren’t babies just getting tossed in the trash all willy nilly here – the twisting of words and data will not fly here.
“If Keiko wants to elaborate on the truth you will find the failure rate much higher.”
I’m sorry, if you’re making the argument, then that burden of proof falls on you. Show me the data Mike, back your statements up. Man up dude – now’s the time to whip out your infallible evidence. We’re all ears.
How about you elaborate on the truth, Mike? The one I called you out on many hours ago that has yet to receive a response? Like your 2 unsuccessful bids for NH State Senator? Or the fact that you are a current Trustee to the New Hampshire Right to Life organization?
Let’s come clean about agendas, here Mike.
Mike, it is clear that you and your sister-in-law have suffered. You are not alone. Hundreds of thousands of women and men, and those who love them, also suffer from the vaious awful diagnoses that make up the awful world of infertility. Sometimes that suffering brings us to a better place and sometimes it does not. I’m sorry that it brought you to such a dark place filled with anger and bitterness. Good luck to you sir.
Ditto this. I’ve been to that dark place too and it was pretty awful. Coming face to face with the darkest parts of myself? Not pretty. But then I fought back. I made something positive out of this. I wrote this blog. I started this work for the community. I became a better person because of my infertility. Thanks Chrissy, for the comment.
IVF is not a scam. I have 2 beautiful nieces due to IVF. Thank you Keiko for raising this issue to my attention. You are doing women all over the world a huge service with your work. Mike obviously does not have a medical background or a uterus to be able to understand what women go through. It’s sad to hear his flailing drowning argument against this. Because this is the type of person trying to get these bills passed. Only thinking of themselves and their pain. Not realizing the detriment that putting these restrictions on others will cause. Not a very Christianly attitude if you ask me.
Kate, no formal intro? Hi, I’m Kate, I hate my job? 😉 JK. Thanks for Red Tent representin’!
Haha! I read this post out to some of my coworkers who live in NH. They are all ticked off now.
Check out all the support below. Damn girl. You are doing good and people like you…. or they don’t like Mike a whole lot. Probably both.
RTT Represent!!!
Christian means a follower of Christ, specifically Jesus, the Son of God. If God so desired it he could enable any woman to carry a child. Issac wasn’t born to a young wife. Listen when He speaks. Maybe he has a different plan for you. There is nothing wrong or bad about that. It is what it is. He is God, not you or I. He knows better than either of us.
Mike, for a Christian, you seem to not know your own Bible very well. Um, Isaac had an EXTREMELY young wife, Rebecca. Isaac was 40 when he married Rebecca. There are two scholarly interpretations as to her age- she was either 3 when they got married, or 14. You be the judge. But last time I checked, that makes her a young wife.
Mind you, you’re talking to a woman who used to write at HannahWeptSarahLaughed.com to talk about her infertility in the context of religion, so I know a little bit about the Matriarchs and the struggles some of them faced to become mothers.
Even when you do try to come to the table with facts, they’re wrong. You wanna keep dancin’ Mike?
Let’s dance.
Mike, not everyone is christian. Some, like myself, do not prescribe to any faith. Others are just as faithful to a religion outside of the christian faith. If I don’t believe, then your theory is neither true or real to me. I don’t need my soul saved or prayed for. While I respect your choice to practice a faith, I ask you not to force your faith and beliefs on myself or others. Especially when that faith is used to change laws. Your country is multi-cultural and made up from a very diverse group of citizens who all deserve to be viewed and protected by the laws set forth for your country. Religion has no place in politics so stop trying to make this a religious debate.
Mike,
While I get what you’re saying re: Abraham and Sarah having Isaac even when she was too old to be considered fertile…you really can not use that as an argument. Yes, miracles do happen. People get pg even when they are told they will never have children. But sometimes a miracle is in the eye of the beholder. I myself, being a Christian, believe that life begins at conception. I believe that a fetus is a baby. On the other side, I also believe that we are made in the image of God (per the Bible), with a brain to think….God created us to do great things. To be his hands to those in need. Are doctors not Christians? Can they not be a way for God to heal people? One of Jesus’ disciples was a DOCTOR.
I have not gone through IVF, but I still support the efforts that Keiko is trying to relay. I have had 2 miscarriages, one real live son, and gone through 9 rounds of Clomid and 3 rounds of injections with timed intercourse. If you are against IVF b/c it assists infertile couples to be blessed with a child, then you are also against the treatment I have had…which makes you wrong. Because I could (and would) go round and round with you on the biblical aspects of this. Just because a person can not get knocked up the “natural” way (or stay pg–FYI having more than 2 miscarriages makes you infertile as well, even if you didn’t need treatment to get pg), doesn’t mean that it’s not “God’s will” to have a child. Yes, people adopt, but please, for the sake of all things Holy, do NOT *ever* suggest someone to adopt a child that can not have one physically. Like others have said, unless you’re out adopting children, you can not use that argument. You said God only allowed you to have one child…why didn’t you “just adopt” more?
Mike, I truly do understand some of what you are trying to convey (significance of life at conception, etc.), and I am sorry your SIL had to endure infertility. However, because of the “Christian attitude and values” you are pushing onto people, you are a perfect example of why so many people in the world feel forced to stay silent about this disease (and YES, it IS a disease, caused by other diseases…check it out for yourself) and instead remain feeling alone, ashamed, and resentful. I hit my lowest of lows with my trust in God when I was about a year into trying to conceive. I was angry at God, questioning why he thought I was not worthy to have a child, Thankfully, I had a supportive family who didn’t try to degrade me or question my intentions by going through treatments. I really, truly hope that, as a Christian, you did not condemn your SIL just b/c the tx wasn’t a success. What a shame if you did.
Mike,
So God didn’t want your family reproducing. And now you’re bitter. It’s so much clearer now. I understand your anger and I want you to know that I forgive you. Because I am human and I recognize your pain and see where your frustration is coming from. NOT because I am religious at all.
And terminating an embryo, fetus or other contents of my uterus is up to me and my gods. Your judgement holds no weight here. Get your f*cking opinions out of my dysfunctional reproductive organs.
Dear Anna & Jamie, Please don’t buy the hype. It is about them taking advantage of you. It does not work. You need to find a safer way for whatever child God may grant you.
No Mike, you’ve got it all wrong. It’s about trying to build families. I can’t even count the number of families I’ve met online and in person who’ve come to be through the use of IVF and other assisted reproductive technologies.
And I’m sorry your G-d is a fickle G-d that picks and chooses who gets to be a parent and who doesn’t. Thank goodness my G-d allowed for the technology and wisdom to develop such amazing feats of science to create embryos outside of the womb.
My God is everybody’s God whether you agree with Him or not. I accept the fact that He ultimately knows much better than I. I wanted more children but I accepted the fact that He only allowed us one. When God speaks things happen. The word of God is very powerful.
Oh no no buddy, you don’t get to speak for Ha-Shem here. Your G-d and my G-d are apparently two VERY different dieties, and yours makes me kind of sad. To know that through no fault of one’s own, one is either worthy or not worthy to parent. How sad.
My G-d isn’t punishing me. I’ve accepted that. I’m sorry yours did though, in your mind.
I believe in fertility treatments. I’m 38, have had 6 m/c in the last 20 months. And if it takes spending 15000 out of pocket to get my little miracle, then that’s what we will do. Because I believe!!
Anna, first let me give you a huge virtual internet hug. 6 losses? I’m holding you in my heart because damn – you’re a fierce fighter to keep going. I’m so sorry for those losses. I believe in you too – somehow, someway – you’re going to parent. Keep believin’ and fightin’ too.
Thank you. I have not done ivf yet. I got pregnant all 6 times naturally. Love my clearblue fertility monitor. But its been the hardest thing to do. Yes, I can get pregnant. Easily to say the least. But I just cant carry them over 6 weeks. And seeing my guy with my kids, well. I cant give up! I set out to give him a baby, and im not quitting till I give birth to a healthy little one..
Dear Keiko,
By your own admission IVF (as far as you claim) fails over 60% of the time. Those are not good odds. Those are particularly bad odds when innocent human life is at stake. Given your claim to have “said this a million times and been told this a million times” (not physically possible), I challenge your statistics and willingness to admit or tell the truth.
IVF is a scam. I know that from personal experience. The entire IVF procedure left my sister-in-law an emotional wreck to this day, 10 years later. All those dead babies are buried in a grave I paid for. I can say this as a fact.
Your statistics are most likely made up to con people into buying your scam. AND even if the statistics you provided are accurate, that is still more dead little babies. Of what value is Motherhood if it is over the bodies of dead little babies (your embryos, your children).
Chemo and radiation therapy do not involve the destruction of innocent human life. Comparing IVF to that is completely irrelevant.
Please forgive me if I offend your sensibilities, I would prefer my Mother, my Wife, and my Daughter not to be baby killers. If you want to be a parent, adopt. At least that way you aren’t taking the life of another. It is a much better way to start off as a Parent. If you are unable to adopt because there aren’t any available children to adopt then vote to ban abortion.
However, if you are just a political hack trying to spin this to defeat the bill for the far-left so you can make a buck or because you enjoy being smug then please note you can find better things to do. If you seriously want to do the world and infertile couples a favor, then quit promoting IVF. Quit the job.
IVF is a SCAM.
Hi Mike,
If you are so against IVF, fertility treatments in general and believe that this bill should pass, then why are you essentially trolling on a website of someone who clearly has an opinion different to yours? We are all allowed to have our own thoughts and opinions, we are allowed to voice our opinions and we do in our own space. We do not attack pro lifers, we simply state what we think on our own pages. If you are coming to this site, you are either trolling for attention or trying to make other people feel badly about their life situations and their attempt to move forward in their decisions. I understand that you have very strong beliefs, but that does not mean that the rest of us can’t. I do not believe that IVF or fertility treatments are a scam. I believe that religion is a scam but I don’t come to you and spout off how god is a scam. I respect your choices and I also respect the choices of those that do move forward with treatment. We have as much right to talk about this as you do. But unless you are willing to have an actual debate and take other people’s thoughts into consideration (and that means considering this, actually talking about it, not telling us we are wrong and listing off the reasons why), then maybe you need a different audience to spout your insensitive comments to.
I will do what I choose to do, and so will these women and nothing you have to say or preach to us will change that. Have a wonderful day.
Normally, I don’t feed the trolls, I really don’t. But sometimes, when I see a legacy of highly searchable keywords peppering someone’s comment, I gotta go on record and fight back.
I’m not on NH Right to Life’s page bashing them, am I? No, no I’m not. Mostly because I don’t want to give them the satisfaction of pageviews.
We all try to not feed the trolls, but sometimes, you just need to lash out and set the record straight. And just wanted to say BRAVO! I’m grateful for people like you who are willing to fight the good fight for all of us 🙂
Also, I may be sitting here with some popcorn, evil cackle in high gear as I read your responses. Maybe…just a bit.
You wanna play Mike? Let’s dance.
Calling me a political hack is a bit of stretch for someone who lost New Hampshire State Senate races TWICE in 94 and 96. Also, let’s be completely transparent about who you’re representing: New Hampshire’s Right to Life. Looks like you’re a Trustee. In fact, your frequent Letters to the Editor of major NH newspapers indicates you’ve been a trustee since at least 2011.
Your problem seems to be a matter of semantics and vocabulary, Mike.
You write: “All those dead babies are buried in a grave I paid for.” So if you’ve got a baby big enough to have a grave, then guess what? IVF WORKED. The embryo(s) implanted. That right there? That’s what IVF does. Is the goal to come home with a baby? Absolutely. But the IVF procedure itself? Implantation. Once you get past that state, then you’re in the wilds of pregnancy like any other pregnancy, natural or otherwise.
What your sister-in-law experienced is something known as a pregnancy loss/miscarriage or stillbirth, depending on how late-term it was. If IVF didn’t work? She’s have something known as a chemical pregnancy. And last time I checked, it’s pretty hard to bury a collection of cells smaller than the end of a pencil eraser. But the procedure – IVF itself – worked.
“Your statistics are most likely made up to con people into buying your scam” – really? Do you take issue with the American Society of Reproductive Endocrinologists, yanno, the leading non-partisan authority on the practice of fertility-related medicine in the United States. Yanno, whatevs. You believe what you want, but facts are facts.
“Chemo and radiation therapy do not involve the destruction of innocent human life.” Have you ever met someone who’s been through cancer? They’d have a bone to pick with your choice of words here. Because guess what: chemo and radiation therapy destroy living human tissue. But arguing this is like arguing about the ship of Theseus – at what point does human tissue become a human baby? Because in the context of cancer, its just cells and tissue. In the context of fertility, it’s a baby… even though those blastocysts and embryos are just as much a cluster of cells as a section of the human body undergoing chemo.
IVF doesn’t destroy innocent life, Mike. Embryos that stopped developing of their own natural accord are discarded because they won’t work. You’re a software guy, right? Would you put a broken motherboard into a computer? No. You’d toss it. I hate to be plain here, but yeah, that’s what happens to non-developing embryos. They didn’t survive. Ergo, you move on and proceed with the ones that DO make it… which sounds like creating life to me, but hey – you’re the one with the semantics issues.
“Please forgive me if I offend your sensibilities, I would prefer my Mother, my Wife, and my Daughter not to be baby killers.” Guess what MIke? If your daughter becomes pregnant naturally, without assistance? She still carries a 25% chance of miscarrying. By your definition- your daughter’s body is by the sheer force of biology- a baby killer. Whether she wanted that baby or not, the biology of her body said No and sent that baby on its way out. Forgive me if I offend your sensibilities with your own logic.
And this, this is just fucking priceless – telling me to adopt because “It is a much better way to start off as a Parent.”
Really?
Did you adopt your daughter?
Because having her naturally isn’t that great of a way to be a parent to her, according to you. Adoption is such an easy answer to throw out there Mike, because it’s a throwaway strawman argument. Adoption costs nearly twice as much. The Hague Convention a few years ago has made international adoption incredibly more difficult in recent years than it used to be. China has wised up and realized that perhaps they shouldn’t be adopting out so many of their daughters because hey, they have a population they’d like to maintain.
I am ALL FOR adoption, let me be clear – but it’s not a family building option that should fall solely on the shoulders of the infertile. Where’s your adopted kid, Mike? Why aren’t you doing your fucking part?
“to defeat the bill for the far-left so you can make a buck” You know what makes a buck for me, Mike? My eBooks. I have two of them. And fertility coaching. I help people try to live as productive lives as they can while they walk this long, long journey to parenthood. I’m not pushing IVF or any kind of agenda here. I focus on the emotional part of this journey and believe me – this is one of the hardest life journeys a couple can walk together.
This bill- as written – should be defeated simply because while trying to punish those that would take a human life, it prevents thousands of NH couples from starting their families in the first place. They tried too hard to be inclusive and ended up being extremely exclusive in the process to the 1 in 8 in NH suffering from infertility.
You know what’s a scam, Mike? Calling an 8-cell blastocyst a human being. Threatening a woman’s access to necessarily medical care under the guise of “protecting life.” That’s the scam here, not IVF.
BOOYAH!
“You know what’s a scam, Mike? Calling an 8-cell blastocyst a human being. Threatening a woman’s access to necessarily medical care under the guise of “protecting life.” That’s the scam here, not IVF.”
Quote of the day.
Mike,
If you were to lose your job and at risk of losing your house would you say forget trying to find a job in this economy? Or would you fight and do everything you could to keep your house and find a job remotely close to the same pay. Women who experience infertility want to try everything they could to have their biological families that they dreamed about since mostly likely at childhood. Women are given dolls at a very young age. We are almost programmed that one major job we will have in our lives is to be a mother. When that is being jeopardized, women feel lost, hopeless, depressed, angry, and fearful. Also, would you play the lotto for a 41% chance of winning? And if I was going for IVF and the doctor put nonviable cells in and experience another heartbreak, I would be enraged! I am sorry it did not work for your sister-in -law.
Good luck NH! I live in IL but support your cause! I live in IL and can’t even get Clomid covered under insurance!
Dear Carrie,
I just received notice of your response. (Note: I did not receive notice of the other responses. I suspect I hit a nerve and was censored out by Keiko, mind you I wasn’t the one to start with the foul language. You may not like what I have to say, but someone has to tell the truth. This is not make-believe.)
Playing IVF is much worse than casino gambling or playing the lottery. There are no lives at stake (except perhaps your own) in Casino Gambling, except that you could perhaps lose all your money. The lottery is a buck. This is $15,000.00 for a slim chance and a lot of heartache. And that chance is over the bodies of your own dead unborn babies.
Nobody would never pay me $15,000 to produce nothing 60% of the time. Neither would I expect them to.
When IVF results in no loss of life and is successful 100% of the time my objection may be moot, except to those who believe God should be the author of Life and are willing to accept his providence in this short life of ours on earth.
IVF is not a good choice either from a financial or spiritual perspective. The fact that you don’t demand something better from the “medical community” is astounding to me. IVF is a scam.
Mike, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if G-d created life and should be the author of our life, why did he give us the brain power to create such things as fertility treatments? Also if we should only do something with 100% certainty of a positive outcome, then we shouldn’t have natural pregnancies either. Did you know that there is a 1 in 3 chance of a person to have a miscarriage even if a woman gets pregnant naturally? If we go by your way of thinking, we should stop procreating completely. Your theory makes no sense. And if that is the case, which you truly seem to think is, then anyone who takes a chance at having kids (naturally or not) runs the risk of murder. But I guess your response to that will come back with, “Well when its natural conception, its in g-d’s hands”. That is not fact, that’s you reasoning to make yourself and those close to you less guilty.
“I suspect I hit a nerve and was censored out by Keiko,”
Nope. If again, you’ve ever read my blog for more than the 20 minutes you invested in today, Mike, you’d know that I leave everything up here. The only comments that ever get censored are obvious attempts at spam, and that’s done automatically by a plugin on this blog. You didn’t receive notification b/c I have another plugin that only notifies folks when I’ve replied. I do it so it doesn’t clog up people’s inboxes, b/c I’m not a fan of spam.
“When IVF results in no loss of life and is successful 100% of the time”
You’ve been getting a lot of flack for spouting off a lot of opinions without a lot of data, facts, or sources to back you up, so I’m going to make this easy on you:
Name me one major medical procedure with a 100% success rate. Just one. Organ transplants? Bone marrow donations? Blood transfusions? Heart surgery? Just one, Mike. Show me you can come up with ONE piece of data to back up your ideas.
“IVF is a scam.”
You keep saying that word… I do not think it means what you think it means. Here, let me help you: Scam: “a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle.” You can’t be fraudulent when every fertility clinic that operates in the United States must provide current SART (Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology) data, meaning – how many cycles worked? How many resulted in live births? How many for women under 35? Over 35? Using donor gametes? Etc. You have the stats ready to go when you walk into any clinic in this country.
How is that a scam again? By walking in and knowing your odds? Where is the fraud?
Do me a favor MIke, before you keep angrily hitting reply to keep sending such hate out there into the Universe – do some fact checking. Come to the table with some data and facts. Then maybe, just maybe, this might become an intelligent discussion rather than the sad, angry internet tough guy you sound like.
Thank you Keiko,
You made my point. But before you jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am talking about (like so many far-left wingers), my sister-in-law spent many thousands of dollars fruitlessly in attempts to become pregnant with IVF. It was a complete and utter waste of money. Your track record makes this procedure a scam and a cash cow for you to take advantage of women unable to become pregnant. This is all in addition to treating unborn children as less than human by defining them as something less, not unlike how black people were described as 2/3rd human simply because they did not have white skin. What is wrong here is what you do. You should quit.
FACT NH HB217 need not be amended to be passed by good people.
FACT IVF should be banned as a scam and con game. IVF does not work.
Please quit and find better work.
Mike, I’m happy to talk about this rationally and without the political digs. I have *no* clue what your political leanings are. You could be the leftest, most granola eating sustainable farmer Democrat out there and still think that personhood is an important issue to you. And you’re entitled to that.
Had you been a regular reader on my blog, I’ve actually talked at length before about why infertility patients need to care about personhood legislation, regardless of their personal political or religious beliefs. Plain and simple: if you want to be able to receive certain fertility treatments, you need to pay attention to any legislation that impedes on that access.
I empathize with your sister-in-law, I do. She’s one of the 1 in 8 affected by infertility in this country. LIke me. Like her. Like a lot of other people in your life that you may not even realize are going through infertility b/c it’s a disease that faces cultural silence and shame, so folks don’t openly talk about it, much like the breast cancer community did back in the 70s before it reached the kind of cultural “acceptance” that is has today.
IVF isn’t a scam. Would you call chemotherapy or radiation therapy a scam if it didn’t work for someone’s cancer? Every patient is unique. Statistics exist for a reason. In a little over 41% of women under 35, IVF works and results in a live birth. Which, vis a vie, means that there’s a little under 60% for whom this treatment may not work. Because I don’t know the specifics of your sister-in-law’s case and oh, I’m not a doctor, I can’t say why it didn’t work. But it happens. It’s the tragedy and heartbreak of living with infertility.
I’ve said this a million times and been told this a million times: if you want to be a parent, you will find a way. It might be fertility treatment. It might be through holistic/alternative medicine. It might be through adoption or foster care. But if you really want to be a parent, you’ll move heaven and earth to make it happen.
And what exactly is it that you think I do here, Mike? You’re president of a software company. I don’t pretend to know what you do. So please don’t pretend to know what I do here. I write and advocate for this community because, as I’m sure your sister-in-law can attest to, infertility sucks. For the most part? It’s a treatable disease in about 80% of all cases. But treatment for this particular medically-recognized disease is often seen as elective treatment. Viagra gets more coverage than infertility treatments – even procedures like IUI or basic drugs like Clomid.
People make lots of assumptions about what it’s like to live with infertility. I’m here to dispel those assumptions and present the facts so folks can make the most informed decisions they need to regarding their personal family building journey.
At the end of the day Mike, the point is this: we’re all just trying to be parents. We’re all just trying to build our families. If legislations exists out there that robs anyone of that chance? Well, I’m going to write about it and encourage the constituents that legislation affects to speak up and do something about it.
Out of curiosity Mike,
Would you love your niece or nephew less had they been concieved, simply because they were created by “an utter waste of money”? Or would it not have been a waste of money because it worked? Would it not be a “scam” because you sister recieved the miracle so many of us pray for? I am a firm believer in God, and I pray every night for my miracle to come. But I also believe that god would not allow for the technolog to exist, and for so many to benefit from it, if it wasn’t supposed to.
Jamie
Jamie, I’m praying for you too, hun. I’m praying for all of us.
To echo Jamie’s comment and to throw some more facts out there: if you think IVF is expensive, try adoption. $30-40K out of pocket, easily.
Calling IVF and fertility treatments a “scam” demonstrates how much you don’t know about the process. Countless thousands (if not millions) of families have had children thanks to advanced fertility treatments like IVF.
Unborn children aren’t treated as less than human under the law. They are treated as non-persons. There is a big difference. A “person” under the law is a legal definition that would entitle the fertilized egg to many things, including the rights to own a gun and free speech and all other kinds of things. An embryo is not an “unborn child.” To call it as such fundamentally misunderstands the process by which life occurs. It’s not rocket science, but it is science.
Calling an embryo or fetus a “person” under the law has so many “unintended” consequences that hinder any kind of quality of life. It would criminalize women who miscarry if they knew they were high risk for miscarriage. It would criminalize doctors and nurses for helping women through ectopic pregnancies. It would also potentially outlaw the use of birth control. These measures are nothing short of an infringement on women’s rights. More than that they are bad legislation…bad public policy.
Your fundamental misunderstanding of the issues is evident and sad.
Extremely well said, Kim – thank you. And just to pad out your numbers, approximately 58,000 thousand babies are born via IVF each year in American, about 1% of the population! It’s a wonder, indeed. Hoping to add my contribution next year should our IVF cycle work this summer 🙂
Dear Keiko,
I believe the intent of the bill was not to criminalize IVF in New Hampshire. However, I am a bit taken aback at your attitude regarding the treatment of embryos (unborn babies). After day three you discard them?!! Not very nice. I know of someone else this world tried to discard for three days. Anyone who brings a life into this world should care enough to let it continue living regardless of how. If your attitude is to dispose of every person you have no use for (or can’t profit from) what makes you any better than an abortionist? It is ironic isn’t it. Women used to be considered chattel. Now women like yourself consider unborn babies chattel (property) to be created and disposed of as you will.
Hi Mike, Thanks for weighing in. Correct -the intent of the bill had nothing to do with IVF. Unfortunately, based on how it was worded and especially with language that was added in an amendment by the Senate Judiciary Committee on Monday of this week, IVF as practice became an unwitting victim in NH’s efforts to update its homicide statutes.
I wish Mike, that you did a little homework to understood the process of IVF before posting your comment. Here’s how this works, as plainly as I can put it. Sperm is collected. Eggs are retrieved. Through the wonders of science, a blastocyst is created outside of a woman’s body. The earliest that blastocyst can be transferred to a waiting uterus is after 3 days – it needs time to divide/multiply and otherwise do all those things that human blastocysts do to become an embryo. Some blastocysts take a little longer to develop than others and an embryologist might determine it’s better to wait until day 5. Unfortunately, a lot of blastocysts don’t make it that long outside of the human body, so it’s a risky move.
Not all blastocysts make it – that’s just the way it goes. Some just stop developing or develop severe abnormalities and they are discarded because they’re not viable or suitable for transfer. It’s just how IVF works. If the goal of IVF is to transfer the best embryos into a woman’s uterus that hopefully implant and then result in a live birth, why would anyone transfer a collection of cells that have stopped developing? Basically, why would I put a collection of broken cells into my uterus that have no chance of making it?
You write:” Anyone who brings a life into this world should care enough to let it continue living regardless of how.” It’s not living if it stopped developing on its own. So yeah, it only makes sense then that “dead” cells would be disposed. You wouldn’t transplant a “dead” kidney to someone, would you?
Remember – the goal here is to build my family, not spin my wheels in the process. And how exactly am I profiting here? When I’m spending upwards of
$15EDIT: $15,000 for a chance to build my family (because even if I put back all the viable embryos at once, which goes against the American Society for Reproductive Medicine’s guidelines of no more than 3 embryos transferred at once), there’s no guarantee that any will implant.The only way I “profit” is when I get to hold my child in my arms, after a long and arduous battle with my own body.
Also? An embryo is not a baby. Check any legal definition in this country. Check any medical definition in the world. I don’t throw this language around to be hyperbolic, but to be accurate. In fact, if you check pretty much any English dictionary, the word “baby” refers to a living creature (human or otherwise) once it’s been birthed. A “baby” technically doesn’t exist in utero by the own limitations of its definition. But I’m not here to argue semantics – I present facts.
Fact: Not all embryos make it during the IVF process.
Fact: The legislators who went out of their way to make this bill NOT about abortion, choice, or personhood unintentionally did so the minute they tried to define “unborn child” from the moment of conception, and by defining conception as the fusion of human spermatozoa and human ovum.
Fact: NH HB 217 as written does not protect couples, embryologists and doctors who perform IVF should the bill pass as written.
Also, I hope that as a New Hampshire constituent, you’ve called your State Senator to express your concerns, regardless of whether you oppose or support HB217 because hey, that’s what makes America awesome by participating as a voting citizen of this country. You get to actually voice your concerns to the people you’ve elected.
I live in NH, however this state is so very not infertility friendly that getting IVF fertility treatments in state is close to impossible. All IVF retrievals, storage and transfers actually happen in Massachusetts (at least as far as I was ever able to find). One can have initial consults and monitoring done in satellite offices all around the state, but once its go time-you have to cross the state lines and head (typically to a hospital in or around Boston) for the actual procedure. As far as I can tell the only place that actually might do retrievals and thus have this bill possibly affect the embryos would be Dartmouth Hitchcock-but their program is insanely tiny. Maine residents also run into the same predicament-plenty of satellite monitoring facilities, but actual retrievals and transfers require a trip to Mass.
Brooke, thank you so much for weighing in. Regardless of whether folks are getting their treatment completed in NH, the fact of the matter is, if HB217 passes as written tomorrow, you can certainly bet there won’t be any new clinics coming to NH anytime soon. Regardless, HB217 is setting a dangerous precedent for other personhood measures which could cause a domino effect that affects IVF across the country.
I hope you called your State Senator today – I know that the Democratic Caucus will all vote no tomorrow and the Republicans are currently in caucus as we speak. That said, you can leave your concerns with their staffer and they can pass on the message.